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Science Fiction » alt.startrek » REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S]
REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #53641] Fr, 03 Juni 2005 18:02
ToolPackinMama  
Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G.
by Laura Goodwin
http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us

There are a lot of people who like to think that Kirk got the girl in
every episode. I don't mind if they like to think that, but they should
know that such ideas are their own imaginations at work. Technically,
Spock got (maybe) laid as much as Kirk did: Twice. Do people think
Spock's a womanizing playboy? No, they don't.

People who assert that Kirk was a swinging lady's man can't offer
convincing proof of their claim. All they have is a few spicy hints to
point at, combined with the fevered productions of their own imaginations.

I say that Captain Kirk is not a horndog heterosexual playboy who avidly
chases bimbos and porks all of the chicks, and (unlike my opponents) I
can prove that what I say is true.

Captain Kirk is actually a decent, respectable gentleman who likes nice
ladies (not sluts), and he gets (heterosexual) action ~very rarely~...
and when he does, it's not even his idea. There is also ample reason to
believe he has an intimate relationship with Spock. That's my assertion.
For support, here's a list of all the kissing and similarly suggestive
activity that he was involved in:

SEASON ONE

* 1. The Man Trap - Kirk kisses nobody (but Spock's violently protective
of Kirk)

* 2. Charlie X - Kirk kisses nobody

* 3. Where No Man Has Gone Before - Kirk kisses nobody (but he shows
lots of active interest in in both Gary Mitchell, and Spock)

* 4. The Naked Time - Kirk kisses nobody (but he does have a violently
emotional scene with Spock that includes hand-holding and mutual
face-slapping)

* 5. The Enemy Within - Bad guy Kirk terrorizes Yeoman Rand (doesn't
count: Kirk not himself - Spock somehow just knows Kirk is innocent...
BTW, in one scene Good guy Kirk seems to be flirting with Spock)

* 6. Mudd's Women - Kirk kisses nobody (No, not even Eve. She tried, but
failed)

* 7. What Are Little Girls Made Of? - Kirk kisses android (doesn't
count: not a woman; enemy he's trying to discombobulate)

* 8. Miri - Kirk kisses nobody (Distraught Yeoman Rand gets a brotherly
hug. Kirk similarly hugs Miri in a totally non erotic way.)

* 9. Dagger Of The Mind - Kirk kisses Dr. Noel (doesn't count: Kirk
under undue influence. BTW, Spock seems utterly dismayed and confused by
Kirk's seeming interest in her)

* 10. The Corbomite Maneuver - Kirk kisses nobody (but he does seem to
be showing off his half-naked body to Spock, more than once)

* 11. The Menagerie (Part I and II) - Kirk kisses nobody

* 12. The Conscience Of The King - Kirk kisses Lenore Karidian (he
admits later he was using her to get to her father. Spock categorically
denied to McCoy that Kirk is really interested in her. Hmm. How does he
know?)

* 13. Balance Of Terror - Kirk kisses nobody

* 14. Shore Leave - Kirk kisses nobody (No, not even "Ruth")

* 15. The Galileo Seven - Kirk kisses nobody

* 16. The Squire of Gothos - Kirk kisses nobody

* 17. Arena - Kirk kisses nobody

* 18. Tomorrow Is Yesterday - Kirk kisses nobody

* 19. Court Martial - Kirk gives Lt. Areel Shaw a dry little kiss
goodbye after the trial.

* 20. The Return Of The Archons - Kirk kisses nobody

* 21. Space Seed - Kirk kisses nobody (Lt. McGivers has a love affair
with Khan)

* 22. A Taste Of Armageddon - Kirk kisses nobody

* 23. This Side Of Paradise - Kirk kisses nobody (but Spock maybe makes
love with Leila Kalomi. He's drugged and not himself at the time. Kirk
picks a big fight with Spock, and after that, Spock dumps Kalomi.)

* 24. The Devil In The Dark - Kirk kisses nobody

* 25. Errand of Mercy - Kirk kisses nobody

* 26. The Alternative Factor - Kirk kisses nobody

* 27. The City On The Edge Of Forever - Kirk kisses Edith Keeler. NOTE:
she makes the first move. (Kirk privately admits he's in love with her
to Spock. Oddly, he never tells her. Hmm.)

* 28. Operation-Annihilate! - Kirk kisses nobody

SEASON TWO

* 29. Amok Time - Kirk kisses nobody (but he and Spock run off together
at the end! Holy COW!)

* 30. Who Mourns For Adonais? - Kirk kisses nobody (Scotty is infatuated
with Lt. Palamas, but she falls for Apollo)

* 31. The Changeling - Kirk kisses nobody (but he does have an extremely
long holding-onto-Spock scene)

* 32. Mirror, Mirror - Kirk kisses Mirror-Kirk's girlfriend, Lt. Marlena
Moreau (doesn't count: he's just posing as his Mirror universe double)

* 33. The Apple - Kirk kisses nobody (Ensign Chekov and Lt. Landon have
an affair)

* 34. The Doomsday Machine - Kirk kisses nobody

* 35. Catspaw - Kirk kisses Sylvia (doesn't count: not a woman; enemy
he's trying to discombobulate)

* 36. I, Mudd - Kirk kisses nobody

* 37. Metamorphosis - Kirk kisses nobody

* 38. Journey To Babel - Kirk kisses nobody

* 39. Friday's Child - Kirk kisses nobody

* 40. The Deadly Years - Kirk kisses nobody (Dr. Wallace comes on to
him, but he discourages her. OTOH, he creates an excuse to show off his
half-naked body to Spock.)

* 41. Obsession - Kirk kisses nobody

* 42. Wolf In The Fold - Kirk kisses nobody

* 43. The Trouble With Tribbles - Kirk kisses nobody

* 44. The Gamesters Of Triskelion - Kirk kisses Shana (he apparently is
trying to win her as a ally, or use her somehow)

* 45. A Piece Of The Action - Kirk kisses nobody

* 46. The Immunity Syndrome - Kirk kisses nobody

* 47. A Private Little War - Kirk kisses Nona (doesn't count: she has
him bewitched AND drugged, plus she flat out orders him to do it. It's
definitely NOT his idea!)

* 48. Return To Tomorrow - Kirk kisses nobody (that's Sargon in his
body, doing the kissing)

* 49. Patterns Of Force - Kirk kisses nobody (but there is a very weird
bit where he masochisticly offers himself as a stepstool for Spock. Jeez
Louise!)

* 50. By Any Other Name - Kirk kisses Kalinda (doesn't count: not a
woman; enemy he's trying to discombobulate)

* 51. The Omega Glory - Kirk kisses nobody

* 52. The Ultimate Computer - Kirk kisses nobody

* 53. Bread And Circuses - Kirk kisses Drusilla (enemy chick he's trying
to manipulate. He's forced to spend time with her, and she's under
orders to entertain him - it's not like they chose to spend time together.)

* 54. Assignment: Earth - Kirk kisses nobody

SEASON THREE

* 55. Spock's Brain - Kirk kisses nobody

* 56. The Enterprise Incident - Kirk kisses nobody (Spock deceptively
seduces the Romulan Commander, but it's totally duty-related.)

* 57. The Paradise Syndrome - Kirk kisses his "wife" Miramanee. This is
one of two times in TOS that Kirk got laid. NOTE: they are married!
(does it count? he's not himself; has amnesia, is required to marry her
by tribal law.)

* 58. And The Children Shall Lead - Kirk kisses nobody (but there is a
blatantly homoerotic hug scene between Kirk and Spock)

* 59. Is There In Truth No Beauty? - Kirk kisses nobody, but he does
seem to be preparing to kiss Miranda (but only to distract her. It's
obviously purely duty-related)

* 60. Spectre Of The Gun - Kirk kisses nobody

* 61. Day Of The Dove - Kirk kisses nobody

* 62. For The World Is Hollow And I Have Touched the Sky - Kirk kisses
nobody (McCoy has a love affair)

* 63. The Tholian Web - Kirk kisses nobody

* 64. Plato's Stepchildren - Kirk kisses Uhura (doesn't count: they are
both forced to do it)

* 65. *Wink Of An Eye - Kirk kisses and boinks Deela. They do have sex,
it seems. This is one of the two times in TOS that Kirk apparently gets
laid. NOTE: Not his idea! (doesn't count: Kirk is forced by the threat
of death; enemy he's trying to discombobulate)

* 66. The Empath - Kirk kisses nobody

* 67. Elaan Of Troyius - Kirk kisses Elaan (doesn't count: not his idea,
he's drugged by her magical tears)

* 68. Whom Gods Destroy - Kirk is kissed by Marta (doesn't count: not
his idea, enemy he's trying to discombobulate)

* 69. The Mark Of Gideon - Kirk kisses Odona (enemy he's trying to
manipulate)

* 70. That Which Survives - Kirk kisses nobody

* 71. The Lights Of Zetar - Kirk kisses nobody (Scotty has a love affair)

* 72. Requiem For Methuselah - Kirk kisses android (thinks she's a
woman. Seems to really like her. Later, Spock mind-melds with sleeping
Kirk without being invited to, to remove Kirk's memory of the whole
incident! Good LORD!)

* 73. The Way To Eden - Kirk kisses nobody

* 74. The Cloud Minders - Kirk kisses nobody (there is a somewhat
suggestive scene between Spock and Droxine, but it leads to nothing)

* 75. The Savage Curtain - Kirk kisses nobody

* 76. All Our Yesterdays - Kirk kisses nobody (Spock possibly makes love
with Zarabeth, but he's clearly not himself)

* 77. Turnabout Intruder - Kirk kisses nobody (holds hands with Spock
while in Lester's body! Did you SEE THAT!?)

NOTE: the reason I draw special attention to Kirk holding hands with
Spock is because it was established that holding hands is how Vulcans
show affection. When Sarek and Amanda touch hands in Journey to Babel,
it's the Vulcan equivalent of a hug and a kiss. Kirk and Spock hold
hands several times, and in general are quite physical with each other.
The physicality between them at times is violently emotional.

POST-TOS:

In ST: TMP, Kirk engages in some prolonged and intense hand-holding with
Spock in ST: TMP, but he doesn't kiss anybody.

Carol Marcus in ST 2 (Wrath of Khan), scientist and mother of his son,
David. Their affair is a thing of the distant past. Not only don't we
see them kiss, they can barely stand each other. OTOH, Kirk and Spock
have a couple of scenes where they basically declare love to each other.
In one scene, Spock says "I have been, and always shall be yours."

ST 3, Kirk is all about Spock. The only ship he cares about is his
relationSHIP with Spock! Early in the movie, he mourns aloud in a
voiceover about feeling like he left his "more noble half" (in other
words, his better half) on Genesis...and he's referring to Spock.

In ST 4, Kirk gets a chaste little kiss on the cheek from the lady. But
he and Spock play like sea otters in heat in the water at the climax.

In ST 5, I don't think Kirk gets any sugar at all, does he? When he goes
to hug Spock at the end, Spock says, "Captain, please, not in front of
the Klingons!"

In ST 6 some kind of creature kisses Kirk. He doesn't exactly ask for
that attention. There is also a quick scene where he and Spock look like
they maybe are kissing.

Antonia in _Generations_: Kirk is cooking and serving her breakfast in
bed when we first learn of her. Hmm! Not exactly the bonk 'em with a
club and drag 'em to your cave by the hair type, is he!? We don't really
ever find out if Antonia is a real woman or just a fantasy, so I don't
count her. We do hear her voice, and catch a glimpse of her on
horseback, but she could be as unreal as Picard's "children", and
besides, we never saw her and Kirk even kiss. DIG THIS: when Picard
follows Kirk into the "bedroom", it turns out to be a stable, and
there's no woman there, just a horse and a dog (both male). WHAT IS UP
WITH THAT!? In any case, true to form, Kirk summarily dumps the unreal
"woman" (Antonia) to run off with a real man (Picard).

====

So, what does it all mean?

Generally, as a romantic figure, Kirk is a complete dud - unless you
agree that his partnership with Spock is romantic.

There IS proof that Kirk was very selective about women, that he had a
definite type that he preferred (intelligent, independent, ladylike),
and that he had sex with women very rarely.

Neither Kirk nor Spock ever had a lasting relationship with any woman.
Their erotic relationships with women are few, far between, and fleeting.

There's NO proof that Kirk is a horny playboy heterosexual tramp. All
the proof that exists proves, if anything, the exact opposite: that he's
lukewarm about women, and indeed he could even be Gay. The fact that you
can say the same about Spock (and for similar reasons) is, yes, significant.

There IS proof that Kirk and Spock were very devoted to each other, and
that they certainly are deeply intimate. Kirk and Spock love each other,
far more than they love any other character in their universe. They
sometimes act possessive and jealous of each other, and save their most
outrageous and extreme demonstrations of love for each other. Kirk and
Spock prove their love for each other in a big way, many times.

Both Kirk and Spock show some small, fleeting interest in a tiny number
of women, but many Gay men do. That alone is NOT proof that someone is
heterosexual. Face it, Kirk and Spock's relationship with each other is
the primary love relationship for both of them. That alone is not proof
that they are homosexual, but it is significant. If Kirk and Spock are
sexually intimate, they are very discreet about it. They are not overt,
but that doesn't mean they are not Gay.

There IS proof that Kirk was selective about his women, that he had a
definite type he preferred, and that he got laid very rarely. There's
proof that Kirk and Spock love each other, and in fact were very devoted
to each other. Where's the *proof* that Kirk is a playboy? There isn't any.

As a heterosexual, Kirk isn't very great with women. But as a
homosexual, Kirk actually is a very romantic hero. He actually is a
great lover. He loves deeply, wholeheartedly, with a fierce, white-hot
passion. He proves his deep love and devotion many times, in a very big
way.

I guess that's why I prefer to think of Kirk as Gay. IMHO, as a Gay
character, he's more fully heroic, romantic, appealing, and interesting.
He's a poor example of a heterosexual, but for a Gay hero, he's quite
spectacular.
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #53700 ] Sa, 04 Juni 2005 04:47
Kevin  
A bunch of stuff clipped for brevity ---

You've got to be kidding. Not the "Kirk is gay" thing again? I thought
this was put to rest ages ago. If you were to speak with Bill, Leonard,
Nichelle, Walter, George or Jimmy they would give you a sideways look, roll
their eyes and ignore you completely. They hate this kind of stuff. Gene
and Majel refused to even discuss this topic when it was brought up.


"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:42A07F0F.5030800 [at] lauragoodwin.org...
> Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G.
> by Laura Goodwin
> http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #53702 ] Sa, 04 Juni 2005 04:48
ToolPackinMama  
Kevin wrote:
> A bunch of stuff clipped for brevity ---
>
> You've got to be kidding. Not the "Kirk is gay" thing again? I thought
> this was put to rest ages ago.

Certainly not.
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #53703 ] Sa, 04 Juni 2005 04:50
ToolPackinMama  
Kevin wrote:

> Gene
> and Majel refused to even discuss this topic when it was brought up.

Gee, that's not true. I got some good Gene Roddenbery quotes, wanna see
'em?
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #53716 ] Sa, 04 Juni 2005 07:47
phyphor  
On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:48:52 -0400, ToolPackinMama
<laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote:

>Kevin wrote:
>> A bunch of stuff clipped for brevity ---
>>
>> You've got to be kidding. Not the "Kirk is gay" thing again? I thought
>> this was put to rest ages ago.
>
>Certainly not.
<rolls eyes> Of *COURSE* not, after all, look at the hundreds of
posters to these NG's just WAITING for a chance to debate K/S. After
all, it's clearly a hot button topic. Nope, no marginilization here,
folks!


Oh wait...

-LMB
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #53725 ] Sa, 04 Juni 2005 14:08
urbanasphalt  
Show us your bullshit, out-of-context quotes and I'll show you
Hollywood pandering to as WIDE a fan-base as possible.

How's your electroshock therapy coming along?
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #53726 ] Sa, 04 Juni 2005 14:10
urbanasphalt  
Roddenberry was LIVID when a TREK book came out with a K/S theme. He
had all the copies recalled and pulped. That's more important than some
death bed "confession" that you keep yammering about.
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #53732 ] Sa, 04 Juni 2005 18:40
kev  
On 04 Jun 2005, the world was enlightened by 's opinion about...

> Roddenberry was LIVID when a TREK book came out with a K/S theme. He
> had all the copies recalled and pulped. That's more important than some
> death bed "confession" that you keep yammering about.
>
>

IIRC, that would be the book would be "Black Fire" by Sonni Cooper. It was
re-released after the offending sections were removed/rewritten.

kev

--
Absolute zero is cool.

The Eeeevil Cabal's Nine of Spades.
Wickeddoll's on-demand übernerd.
Declared Hero of alt.tv.star-trek.tos by the ToolPackinMama on 14.09.2003.
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #53735 ] Sa, 04 Juni 2005 19:50
Bozo the Evil Klown  
ToolPackinMama wrote:
> Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G.
> by Laura Goodwin
> http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us
>
> There are a lot of people who like to think that Kirk got the girl in
> every episode. I don't mind if they like to think that, but they should
> know that such ideas are their own imaginations at work. Technically,
> Spock got (maybe) laid as much as Kirk did: Twice. Do people think
> Spock's a womanizing playboy? No, they don't.
>


Spock has been trained all his life to hide his emotions. Between that
and only coming into heat every seven years, a playboy rep would be
hard to maintain.

> People who assert that Kirk was a swinging lady's man can't offer
> convincing proof of their claim. All they have is a few spicy hints to
> point at, combined with the fevered productions of their own imaginations.
>


Then leave our imaginations out of it; after all, broadcast TV couldn't
actually show onscreen sex acts back in the '60s.

Count up the number of women Kirk has kissed onscreen. Then count up
the number of men he's kissed onscreen (And *don't* count him hugging
his son in "Wrath of Khan," that would just be sick).

Now divide the number of chicks Kirk has kissed by the number of guys
he's smooched *on-screen*. You'll have to use Theory of Limits, but it
will give you a reasonable ratio of Kirk's attraction to the ladies vs.
his alleged attraction to guys.

>
> * 1. The Man Trap - Kirk kisses nobody (but Spock's violently protective
> of Kirk)
>


Have you never felt protective toward someone unless you wanted to haul
their ashes?

<Snip>
> * 5. The Enemy Within - Bad guy Kirk terrorizes Yeoman Rand (doesn't
> count: Kirk not himself - Spock somehow just knows Kirk is innocent...


The whole point of the episode was that ***BOTH*** Passionate Kirk and
Introspective Kirk are integral parts of James T. Kirk; he literally
could not live without them both. Passionate Kirk's desire for Rand
was very much part of Jim Kirk, it was just brought out by Passionate
Kirk's lack of any compassion of self-control.

> BTW, in one scene Good guy Kirk seems to be flirting with Spock)


Ummm... whatever happened to leaving our imaginations out of this? <G>

>
> * 9. Dagger Of The Mind - Kirk kisses Dr. Noel (doesn't count: Kirk
> under undue influence. BTW, Spock seems utterly dismayed and confused by
> Kirk's seeming interest in her)
>


Whatever happened between Kirk and Noel at the Xmas party happened
before the mind-control device. And Spock was surprised by Kirk's
change simply because (due to the mind control) it wasn't in character
for him to be openly panting after an officer under his command.

>
> * 14. Shore Leave - Kirk kisses nobody (No, not even "Ruth")


But Ruth was the one person he was thinking about enough for the Shore
Leave planet to make a replica of.

<Snip>
>
> * 19. Court Martial - Kirk gives Lt. Areel Shaw a dry little kiss
> goodbye after the trial.


And from the dialogue it's apparent that Shaw is *another* girl Kirk
has a history with.

>
> * 23. This Side Of Paradise - Kirk kisses nobody (but Spock maybe makes
> love with Leila Kalomi. He's drugged and not himself at the time. Kirk
> picks a big fight with Spock, and after that, Spock dumps Kalomi.)
>


The spores are certainly comparable with drugs; never heard of a drug
that would switch one's sexual orientation. One can *imagine* one, but
I've never read anything about one.

>
> * 27. The City On The Edge Of Forever - Kirk kisses Edith Keeler. NOTE:
> she makes the first move. (Kirk privately admits he's in love with her
> to Spock. Oddly, he never tells her. Hmm.)
>


Again, the whole point of this episode was that Kirk's love for Keeler
was what made his decision to sacrifice her to save his past so hard.

>
> * 29. Amok Time - Kirk kisses nobody (but he and Spock run off together
> at the end! Holy COW!)


They both left Sickbay, but imagination aside why would they remain
hanging out in Sickbay?

<Snip>
>
> * 32. Mirror, Mirror - Kirk kisses Mirror-Kirk's girlfriend, Lt. Marlena
> Moreau (doesn't count: he's just posing as his Mirror universe double)
>


For a "pose" he certainly didn't seem to mind holding on to the babe
for extended periods of time.

>
> * 35. Catspaw - Kirk kisses Sylvia (doesn't count: not a woman; enemy
> he's trying to discombobulate)


IIRC there were *two* aliens in that ep, one in male form and one in
female form... and the one Kirk chose to smooch was...?

>
> * 42. Wolf In The Fold - Kirk kisses nobody


In those sort of clubs it's considered rude to manhandle the dancers-
though he appeared to be enjoying the dancing.

>
> * 49. Patterns Of Force - Kirk kisses nobody (but there is a very weird
> bit where he masochisticly offers himself as a stepstool for Spock. Jeez
> Louise!)
>


Spock is the only one of the two who could gauge the accurate distance
for the transponders by eye, so Spock was the one who had to get up to
the light. Also, unlike Kryptonians, Vulcans do not levitate.

> * 50. By Any Other Name - Kirk kisses Kalinda (doesn't count: not a
> woman; enemy he's trying to discombobulate)


Again, IIRC there were a number of men and woman-shaped Kelvans in that
episode... and again, Kirk choose the curvacious type for the liplock.

>
> * 53. Bread And Circuses - Kirk kisses Drusilla (enemy chick he's trying
> to manipulate. He's forced to spend time with her, and she's under
> orders to entertain him - it's not like they chose to spend time together.)
>


Drusilla was under orders to be with him and entertain him, yes- but
how does that put any "obligation" on Kirk?? The *only* thing he had
to gain by kissing her was simply to kiss a hot babe.

>
> * 55. Spock's Brain - Kirk kisses nobody


Maybe Kirk has minimum intelligence standards for the women he spends
quality time with.

>
> * 56. The Enterprise Incident - Kirk kisses nobody (Spock deceptively
> seduces the Romulan Commander, but it's totally duty-related.)


And he totally doesn't seem to mind it one bit.

>
> * 57. The Paradise Syndrome - Kirk kisses his "wife" Miramanee. This is
> one of two times in TOS that Kirk got laid. NOTE: they are married!
> (does it count? he's not himself; has amnesia, is required to marry her
> by tribal law.)


Is there any record of an amnesia case where the victim showed a
different sexual orientation from their normal one?

>
> * 58. And The Children Shall Lead - Kirk kisses nobody (but there is a
> blatantly homoerotic hug scene between Kirk and Spock)


To say nothing of the blatant Undue Alien Influence.

>
> * 59. Is There In Truth No Beauty? - Kirk kisses nobody, but he does
> seem to be preparing to kiss Miranda (but only to distract her. It's
> obviously purely duty-related)
>


They've established that Jones' sensor net can read people's biosigns;
she would have noticed if Kirk didn't show the increased pulse and
respiration associated with sexual attraction.

>
> * 65. *Wink Of An Eye - Kirk kisses and boinks Deela. They do have sex,
> it seems. This is one of the two times in TOS that Kirk apparently gets
> laid. NOTE: Not his idea! (doesn't count: Kirk is forced by the threat
> of death; enemy he's trying to discombobulate)
>


And again, with male and female Scalosians, Kirk's bedmate of choice
is...?

>
> * 69. The Mark Of Gideon - Kirk kisses Odona (enemy he's trying to
> manipulate)


And even after he finds out that the real enemy is her father, he's
still concerned for her.

>
> * 70. That Which Survives - Kirk kisses nobody


Kirk does make a point of noticing how beautiful Lee Meriwhether was.

>
> * 72. Requiem For Methuselah - Kirk kisses android (thinks she's a
> woman. Seems to really like her. Later, Spock mind-melds with sleeping
> Kirk without being invited to, to remove Kirk's memory of the whole
> incident! Good LORD!)


If you recall, the meld happened just after McCoy was lecturing Spock
on the glorious pain our emotions can bring us- and the climax of the
episode was an innocent AI literally destroyed by such pain. Wanting
to save a close friend from such pain doesn't require any sexual
attraction to them.

>
> * 76. All Our Yesterdays - Kirk kisses nobody (Spock possibly makes love
> with Zarabeth, but he's clearly not himself)


Don't recall any time-travel story where time travel changed anyone's
sexual orientation.

>
> * 77. Turnabout Intruder - Kirk kisses nobody (holds hands with Spock
> while in Lester's body! Did you SEE THAT!?)


Which scene was that? Was it when Kirk was trying to convince Spock he
was in Lester's body?

>
> NOTE: the reason I draw special attention to Kirk holding hands with
> Spock is because it was established that holding hands is how Vulcans
> show affection. When Sarek and Amanda touch hands in Journey to Babel,
> it's the Vulcan equivalent of a hug and a kiss. Kirk and Spock hold
> hands several times, and in general are quite physical with each other.
> The physicality between them at times is violently emotional.
>
> POST-TOS:
>
> In ST: TMP, Kirk engages in some prolonged and intense hand-holding with
> Spock in ST: TMP, but he doesn't kiss anybody.
>


Was that the scene where Spock was almost killed (or at least risked
serious brain damage) by melding with Vger?? Spock took Kirk's hand to
demonstrate the problem: Simple basic emotions are what Vger needs to
grow any further, and they're the one thing totally beyond Vger's
comprehension.

> Carol Marcus in ST 2 (Wrath of Khan), scientist and mother of his son,
> David. Their affair is a thing of the distant past. Not only don't we
> see them kiss, they can barely stand each other.


Often when a relationship ends badly there is acrimony on both sides.
Seldom does the end of a relationship alter one's sexual orientation.

> OTOH, Kirk and Spock
> have a couple of scenes where they basically declare love to each other.
> In one scene, Spock says "I have been, and always shall be yours."
>


I have deeply loyal friends of both sexes, even though I'm only
attracted to the ladies. Loyalty does not equal lust.

> ST 3, Kirk is all about Spock. The only ship he cares about is his
> relationSHIP with Spock! Early in the movie, he mourns aloud in a
> voiceover about feeling like he left his "more noble half" (in other
> words, his better half) on Genesis...and he's referring to Spock.
>


So the loyalty between them goes both ways; hardly a surprise.

> In ST 4, Kirk gets a chaste little kiss on the cheek from the lady. But
> he and Spock play like sea otters in heat in the water at the climax.
>


In the version I saw, *everyone* was playing in the water.

> In ST 5, I don't think Kirk gets any sugar at all, does he? When he goes
> to hug Spock at the end, Spock says, "Captain, please, not in front of
> the Klingons!"


Klingons do not thank each other for saving one from (apparently)
certain death.

I still reccomend the MSTed version of this movie:

http://www.eskimo.com/~rkj/MST.html

>
> In ST 6 some kind of creature kisses Kirk. He doesn't exactly ask for
> that attention. There is also a quick scene where he and Spock look like
> they maybe are kissing.


Must have been *very* quick... and I must have coincidentally blinked
at that scene every time I've seen the movie.

>
> Antonia in _Generations_: Kirk is cooking and serving her breakfast in
> bed when we first learn of her. Hmm! Not exactly the bonk 'em with a
> club and drag 'em to your cave by the hair type, is he!? We don't really
> ever find out if Antonia is a real woman or just a fantasy, so I don't
> count her.


But even in his fantasies, the only type Kirk would be making breakfast
in bed for is female.

> We do hear her voice, and catch a glimpse of her on
> horseback, but she could be as unreal as Picard's "children", and
> besides, we never saw her and Kirk even kiss. DIG THIS: when Picard
> follows Kirk into the "bedroom", it turns out to be a stable, and
> there's no woman there, just a horse and a dog (both male). WHAT IS UP
> WITH THAT!?


There is often a surreal quality to dreams; mine tend to be far
stranger than merely muddled geography, but mileage varies.

> In any case, true to form, Kirk summarily dumps the unreal
> "woman" (Antonia) to run off with a real man (Picard).
>


Recall Picard appealing to Kirk's sense of duty?? It's been shown
several times that his responsibilities are far stronger than his
libido.

> ====
>
> So, what does it all mean?
>
> Generally, as a romantic figure, Kirk is a complete dud - unless you
> agree that his partnership with Spock is romantic.
>


Not necessarily, though my own favorite romantic character from TOS was
Uhura.

> There IS proof that Kirk was very selective about women, that he had a
> definite type that he preferred (intelligent, independent, ladylike),


No denying Kirk had standards.

> and that he had sex with women very rarely.


Speculation: remember the limits of what can be shown on-screen on TV
or in a movie with less than an R rating.

>
> Neither Kirk nor Spock ever had a lasting relationship with any woman.
> Their erotic relationships with women are few, far between, and fleeting.
>


Both Kirk and Spock were serving on a starship; the *only* way either
could have a lasting relationship was with an oficer serving under
them. IMO they were both far too ethical for anything like that.

> There's NO proof that Kirk is a horny playboy heterosexual tramp. All
> the proof that exists proves, if anything, the exact opposite: that he's
> lukewarm about women, and indeed he could even be Gay. The fact that you
> can say the same about Spock (and for similar reasons) is, yes, significant.
>


The proof is that Kirk had standards. Again, count the number of women
he's kissed onscreen and divide by the number of men...

> There IS proof that Kirk and Spock were very devoted to each other, and
> that they certainly are deeply intimate. Kirk and Spock love each other,
> far more than they love any other character in their universe. They
> sometimes act possessive and jealous of each other, and save their most
> outrageous and extreme demonstrations of love for each other. Kirk and
> Spock prove their love for each other in a big way, many times.
>


But the word they use for each other is never "lover," it is "brother."

<Snip>

*****
The Joker in the Eeeeeeevil Cabal Deck of Cards.

Once we lose magnetic containment, Mr. Antimatter is no longer our
friend.
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #53739 ] So, 05 Juni 2005 00:08
Kevin  
Yeah, let's check it out. Were these quotes from public or private
conversations?

"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:11a25mol03bcv88 [at] news.supernews.com...
> Kevin wrote:
>
> > Gene
> > and Majel refused to even discuss this topic when it was brought up.
>
> Gee, that's not true. I got some good Gene Roddenbery quotes, wanna see
> 'em?
>
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #53746 ] So, 05 Juni 2005 02:17
Brenda  
"Louis M. Brown" <phyphor [at] rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:66g2a1tte2vtul9el319r0mm18c7jhr03e [at] 4ax.com...
> On Fri, 03 Jun 2005 22:48:52 -0400, ToolPackinMama
> <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
>
> >Kevin wrote:
> >> A bunch of stuff clipped for brevity ---
> >>
> >> You've got to be kidding. Not the "Kirk is gay" thing again? I
thought
> >> this was put to rest ages ago.
> >
> >Certainly not.
> <rolls eyes> Of *COURSE* not, after all, look at the hundreds of
> posters to these NG's just WAITING for a chance to debate K/S. After
> all, it's clearly a hot button topic. Nope, no marginilization here,
> folks!
>

Which would explain why she takes this to the TOS-slash NG to share her
enthusiasm.
Why take it to an appropriate forum when you can gain all this attention by
posting it here?

>
> Oh wait...
>
> -LMB
>
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #53755 ] So, 05 Juni 2005 07:53
urbanasphalt  
Thank you Kev for your accurate information.
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #53779 ] So, 05 Juni 2005 17:18
kev  
On 05 Jun 2005, the world was enlightened by 's opinion about...

> Thank you Kev for your accurate information.
>

Heh, it looks like I need to work on my sentence structure, though. :o

kev

--
It's not you, it's me. I don't like you. - Aeryn, Farscape

The Eeeevil Cabal's Nine of Spades.
Wickeddoll's on-demand übernerd.
Declared Hero of alt.tv.star-trek.tos by the ToolPackinMama on 14.09.2003.
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #55794 ] Di, 07 Juni 2005 10:42
TBSFIST  
Interesting. Whereas in the past I felt that you (Laura Goodwin) were
trying your hand at a bit of twisted satire directed towards the TOS
community, I now see that you actually believe that Captain Kirk and
his First Officer Spock were homosexual lovers.

And the writers of the show inserted this gay love into the series for
what reason?

This seems to me to be a classic example of paradigm bias. There is no
real evidence in the show for such a relationship as you suggest,
although there is great evidence for a close friendship between these
two men.

There is always the danger of reading ones own meaning into whatever
the subject or topic may be. There is no lack of voices ready proclaim
some bizarre, controversial fact with a weak and unsupported basis in
reality. Most believe they are right and that those in opposition
suffer from some psychological blindness to the real truth.

One great danger in your assertion is that if two men exhibit such a
devoted personal bond, they must be homosexual lovers. This would make
any heterosexual male friends wary and skittish around people like you
ready to brand them lovers because they aren't aloof and distant.

I think the real question is not were Kirk and Spock gay lovers.

The real question is why do you need for them to be?




P.S. - The answer may lie at www.lauragoodwin.org. I have no objections
to this type of behavior, as long as she can separate her sexual
philosophy from Star Trek. Alas, it seems that she cannot as evidenced
by her prolific posts to this newsgroup on the topic, desperately
trying to prove her point.


ToolPackinMama wrote:
> Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G.
> by Laura Goodwin
> http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us
>
> There are a lot of people who like to think that Kirk got the girl in
> every episode. I don't mind if they like to think that, but they should
> know that such ideas are their own imaginations at work. Technically,
> Spock got (maybe) laid as much as Kirk did: Twice. Do people think
> Spock's a womanizing playboy? No, they don't.
>
> People who assert that Kirk was a swinging lady's man can't offer
> convincing proof of their claim. All they have is a few spicy hints to
> point at, combined with the fevered productions of their own imaginations.
>
> I say that Captain Kirk is not a horndog heterosexual playboy who avidly
> chases bimbos and porks all of the chicks, and (unlike my opponents) I
> can prove that what I say is true.
>
> Captain Kirk is actually a decent, respectable gentleman who likes nice
> ladies (not sluts), and he gets (heterosexual) action ~very rarely~...
> and when he does, it's not even his idea. There is also ample reason to
> believe he has an intimate relationship with Spock. That's my assertion.
> For support, here's a list of all the kissing and similarly suggestive
> activity that he was involved in:
>
> SEASON ONE
>
> * 1. The Man Trap - Kirk kisses nobody (but Spock's violently protective
> of Kirk)
>
> * 2. Charlie X - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 3. Where No Man Has Gone Before - Kirk kisses nobody (but he shows
> lots of active interest in in both Gary Mitchell, and Spock)
>
> * 4. The Naked Time - Kirk kisses nobody (but he does have a violently
> emotional scene with Spock that includes hand-holding and mutual
> face-slapping)
>
> * 5. The Enemy Within - Bad guy Kirk terrorizes Yeoman Rand (doesn't
> count: Kirk not himself - Spock somehow just knows Kirk is innocent...
> BTW, in one scene Good guy Kirk seems to be flirting with Spock)
>
> * 6. Mudd's Women - Kirk kisses nobody (No, not even Eve. She tried, but
> failed)
>
> * 7. What Are Little Girls Made Of? - Kirk kisses android (doesn't
> count: not a woman; enemy he's trying to discombobulate)
>
> * 8. Miri - Kirk kisses nobody (Distraught Yeoman Rand gets a brotherly
> hug. Kirk similarly hugs Miri in a totally non erotic way.)
>
> * 9. Dagger Of The Mind - Kirk kisses Dr. Noel (doesn't count: Kirk
> under undue influence. BTW, Spock seems utterly dismayed and confused by
> Kirk's seeming interest in her)
>
> * 10. The Corbomite Maneuver - Kirk kisses nobody (but he does seem to
> be showing off his half-naked body to Spock, more than once)
>
> * 11. The Menagerie (Part I and II) - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 12. The Conscience Of The King - Kirk kisses Lenore Karidian (he
> admits later he was using her to get to her father. Spock categorically
> denied to McCoy that Kirk is really interested in her. Hmm. How does he
> know?)
>
> * 13. Balance Of Terror - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 14. Shore Leave - Kirk kisses nobody (No, not even "Ruth")
>
> * 15. The Galileo Seven - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 16. The Squire of Gothos - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 17. Arena - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 18. Tomorrow Is Yesterday - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 19. Court Martial - Kirk gives Lt. Areel Shaw a dry little kiss
> goodbye after the trial.
>
> * 20. The Return Of The Archons - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 21. Space Seed - Kirk kisses nobody (Lt. McGivers has a love affair
> with Khan)
>
> * 22. A Taste Of Armageddon - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 23. This Side Of Paradise - Kirk kisses nobody (but Spock maybe makes
> love with Leila Kalomi. He's drugged and not himself at the time. Kirk
> picks a big fight with Spock, and after that, Spock dumps Kalomi.)
>
> * 24. The Devil In The Dark - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 25. Errand of Mercy - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 26. The Alternative Factor - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 27. The City On The Edge Of Forever - Kirk kisses Edith Keeler. NOTE:
> she makes the first move. (Kirk privately admits he's in love with her
> to Spock. Oddly, he never tells her. Hmm.)
>
> * 28. Operation-Annihilate! - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> SEASON TWO
>
> * 29. Amok Time - Kirk kisses nobody (but he and Spock run off together
> at the end! Holy COW!)
>
> * 30. Who Mourns For Adonais? - Kirk kisses nobody (Scotty is infatuated
> with Lt. Palamas, but she falls for Apollo)
>
> * 31. The Changeling - Kirk kisses nobody (but he does have an extremely
> long holding-onto-Spock scene)
>
> * 32. Mirror, Mirror - Kirk kisses Mirror-Kirk's girlfriend, Lt. Marlena
> Moreau (doesn't count: he's just posing as his Mirror universe double)
>
> * 33. The Apple - Kirk kisses nobody (Ensign Chekov and Lt. Landon have
> an affair)
>
> * 34. The Doomsday Machine - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 35. Catspaw - Kirk kisses Sylvia (doesn't count: not a woman; enemy
> he's trying to discombobulate)
>
> * 36. I, Mudd - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 37. Metamorphosis - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 38. Journey To Babel - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 39. Friday's Child - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 40. The Deadly Years - Kirk kisses nobody (Dr. Wallace comes on to
> him, but he discourages her. OTOH, he creates an excuse to show off his
> half-naked body to Spock.)
>
> * 41. Obsession - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 42. Wolf In The Fold - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 43. The Trouble With Tribbles - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 44. The Gamesters Of Triskelion - Kirk kisses Shana (he apparently is
> trying to win her as a ally, or use her somehow)
>
> * 45. A Piece Of The Action - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 46. The Immunity Syndrome - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 47. A Private Little War - Kirk kisses Nona (doesn't count: she has
> him bewitched AND drugged, plus she flat out orders him to do it. It's
> definitely NOT his idea!)
>
> * 48. Return To Tomorrow - Kirk kisses nobody (that's Sargon in his
> body, doing the kissing)
>
> * 49. Patterns Of Force - Kirk kisses nobody (but there is a very weird
> bit where he masochisticly offers himself as a stepstool for Spock. Jeez
> Louise!)
>
> * 50. By Any Other Name - Kirk kisses Kalinda (doesn't count: not a
> woman; enemy he's trying to discombobulate)
>
> * 51. The Omega Glory - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 52. The Ultimate Computer - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 53. Bread And Circuses - Kirk kisses Drusilla (enemy chick he's trying
> to manipulate. He's forced to spend time with her, and she's under
> orders to entertain him - it's not like they chose to spend time together.)
>
> * 54. Assignment: Earth - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> SEASON THREE
>
> * 55. Spock's Brain - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 56. The Enterprise Incident - Kirk kisses nobody (Spock deceptively
> seduces the Romulan Commander, but it's totally duty-related.)
>
> * 57. The Paradise Syndrome - Kirk kisses his "wife" Miramanee. This is
> one of two times in TOS that Kirk got laid. NOTE: they are married!
> (does it count? he's not himself; has amnesia, is required to marry her
> by tribal law.)
>
> * 58. And The Children Shall Lead - Kirk kisses nobody (but there is a
> blatantly homoerotic hug scene between Kirk and Spock)
>
> * 59. Is There In Truth No Beauty? - Kirk kisses nobody, but he does
> seem to be preparing to kiss Miranda (but only to distract her. It's
> obviously purely duty-related)
>
> * 60. Spectre Of The Gun - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 61. Day Of The Dove - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 62. For The World Is Hollow And I Have Touched the Sky - Kirk kisses
> nobody (McCoy has a love affair)
>
> * 63. The Tholian Web - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 64. Plato's Stepchildren - Kirk kisses Uhura (doesn't count: they are
> both forced to do it)
>
> * 65. *Wink Of An Eye - Kirk kisses and boinks Deela. They do have sex,
> it seems. This is one of the two times in TOS that Kirk apparently gets
> laid. NOTE: Not his idea! (doesn't count: Kirk is forced by the threat
> of death; enemy he's trying to discombobulate)
>
> * 66. The Empath - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 67. Elaan Of Troyius - Kirk kisses Elaan (doesn't count: not his idea,
> he's drugged by her magical tears)
>
> * 68. Whom Gods Destroy - Kirk is kissed by Marta (doesn't count: not
> his idea, enemy he's trying to discombobulate)
>
> * 69. The Mark Of Gideon - Kirk kisses Odona (enemy he's trying to
> manipulate)
>
> * 70. That Which Survives - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 71. The Lights Of Zetar - Kirk kisses nobody (Scotty has a love affair)
>
> * 72. Requiem For Methuselah - Kirk kisses android (thinks she's a
> woman. Seems to really like her. Later, Spock mind-melds with sleeping
> Kirk without being invited to, to remove Kirk's memory of the whole
> incident! Good LORD!)
>
> * 73. The Way To Eden - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 74. The Cloud Minders - Kirk kisses nobody (there is a somewhat
> suggestive scene between Spock and Droxine, but it leads to nothing)
>
> * 75. The Savage Curtain - Kirk kisses nobody
>
> * 76. All Our Yesterdays - Kirk kisses nobody (Spock possibly makes love
> with Zarabeth, but he's clearly not himself)
>
> * 77. Turnabout Intruder - Kirk kisses nobody (holds hands with Spock
> while in Lester's body! Did you SEE THAT!?)
>
> NOTE: the reason I draw special attention to Kirk holding hands with
> Spock is because it was established that holding hands is how Vulcans
> show affection. When Sarek and Amanda touch hands in Journey to Babel,
> it's the Vulcan equivalent of a hug and a kiss. Kirk and Spock hold
> hands several times, and in general are quite physical with each other.
> The physicality between them at times is violently emotional.
>
> POST-TOS:
>
> In ST: TMP, Kirk engages in some prolonged and intense hand-holding with
> Spock in ST: TMP, but he doesn't kiss anybody.
>
> Carol Marcus in ST 2 (Wrath of Khan), scientist and mother of his son,
> David. Their affair is a thing of the distant past. Not only don't we
> see them kiss, they can barely stand each other. OTOH, Kirk and Spock
> have a couple of scenes where they basically declare love to each other.
> In one scene, Spock says "I have been, and always shall be yours."
>
> ST 3, Kirk is all about Spock. The only ship he cares about is his
> relationSHIP with Spock! Early in the movie, he mourns aloud in a
> voiceover about feeling like he left his "more noble half" (in other
> words, his better half) on Genesis...and he's referring to Spock.
>
> In ST 4, Kirk gets a chaste little kiss on the cheek from the lady. But
> he and Spock play like sea otters in heat in the water at the climax.
>
> In ST 5, I don't think Kirk gets any sugar at all, does he? When he goes
> to hug Spock at the end, Spock says, "Captain, please, not in front of
> the Klingons!"
>
> In ST 6 some kind of creature kisses Kirk. He doesn't exactly ask for
> that attention. There is also a quick scene where he and Spock look like
> they maybe are kissing.
>
> Antonia in _Generations_: Kirk is cooking and serving her breakfast in
> bed when we first learn of her. Hmm! Not exactly the bonk 'em with a
> club and drag 'em to your cave by the hair type, is he!? We don't really
> ever find out if Antonia is a real woman or just a fantasy, so I don't
> count her. We do hear her voice, and catch a glimpse of her on
> horseback, but she could be as unreal as Picard's "children", and
> besides, we never saw her and Kirk even kiss. DIG THIS: when Picard
> follows Kirk into the "bedroom", it turns out to be a stable, and
> there's no woman there, just a horse and a dog (both male). WHAT IS UP
> WITH THAT!? In any case, true to form, Kirk summarily dumps the unreal
> "woman" (Antonia) to run off with a real man (Picard).
>
> ====
>
> So, what does it all mean?
>
> Generally, as a romantic figure, Kirk is a complete dud - unless you
> agree that his partnership with Spock is romantic.
>
> There IS proof that Kirk was very selective about women, that he had a
> definite type that he preferred (intelligent, independent, ladylike),
> and that he had sex with women very rarely.
>
> Neither Kirk nor Spock ever had a lasting relationship with any woman.
> Their erotic relationships with women are few, far between, and fleeting.
>
> There's NO proof that Kirk is a horny playboy heterosexual tramp. All
> the proof that exists proves, if anything, the exact opposite: that he's
> lukewarm about women, and indeed he could even be Gay. The fact that you
> can say the same about Spock (and for similar reasons) is, yes, significant.
>
> There IS proof that Kirk and Spock were very devoted to each other, and
> that they certainly are deeply intimate. Kirk and Spock love each other,
> far more than they love any other character in their universe. They
> sometimes act possessive and jealous of each other, and save their most
> outrageous and extreme demonstrations of love for each other. Kirk and
> Spock prove their love for each other in a big way, many times.
>
> Both Kirk and Spock show some small, fleeting interest in a tiny number
> of women, but many Gay men do. That alone is NOT proof that someone is
> heterosexual. Face it, Kirk and Spock's relationship with each other is
> the primary love relationship for both of them. That alone is not proof
> that they are homosexual, but it is significant. If Kirk and Spock are
> sexually intimate, they are very discreet about it. They are not overt,
> but that doesn't mean they are not Gay.
>
> There IS proof that Kirk was selective about his women, that he had a
> definite type he preferred, and that he got laid very rarely. There's
> proof that Kirk and Spock love each other, and in fact were very devoted
> to each other. Where's the *proof* that Kirk is a playboy? There isn't any.
>
> As a heterosexual, Kirk isn't very great with women. But as a
> homosexual, Kirk actually is a very romantic hero. He actually is a
> great lover. He loves deeply, wholeheartedly, with a fierce, white-hot
> passion. He proves his deep love and devotion many times, in a very big
> way.
>
> I guess that's why I prefer to think of Kirk as Gay. IMHO, as a Gay
> character, he's more fully heroic, romantic, appealing, and interesting.
> He's a poor example of a heterosexual, but for a Gay hero, he's quite
> spectacular.
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #55812 ] Di, 07 Juni 2005 15:45
ToolPackinMama  
TBSFIST wrote:

> This seems to me to be a classic example of paradigm bias. There is no
> real evidence in the show for such a relationship as you suggest,
> although there is great evidence for a close friendship between these
> two men.

Yeah. They're really close.

http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us/backrub.html

They're really, ~really~ close.

http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us/children.html

They're so darn close, that, heck, air can hardly squeeze in between them.

http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us/chekovsaw.html

In ST3, Kirk said that he felt like Spock was his "more noble half" and
he told a superior officer that Spock's soul was as much his
responsibility as his own was.

Yep, that's close all right. Sho' 'nuff.
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #55819 ] Di, 07 Juni 2005 16:15
ToolPackinMama  
TBSFIST wrote:

> I think the real question is not were Kirk and Spock gay lovers.

Of course not. There can be no question about it. :)
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #55821 ] Di, 07 Juni 2005 16:24
ToolPackinMama  
TBSFIST wrote:

> And the writers of the show inserted this gay love into the series for
> what reason?

What Gay love? I don't see any Gay love. Kirk and Spock are both
heterosexual, and they are only really good friends to one another.

http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us/within.html

Look, Kirk kissed girls lots of times. He fathered a child. Obviously
he's heterosexual, and nothing but.

http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us/bonesnotrand.html

And Spock kissed a couple of women, too. No Gay man would do that.

http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us/noelthing.html

Kirk and Spock never kissed each other, did they? Heck no! You know
why? Because they are too busy kissing women instead, that's why.

http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us/yours.jpg

Kirk and Spock are straight, and they are only best friends. End of
story. Simple as that.

http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us/simplefeeling.html
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #55823 ] Di, 07 Juni 2005 16:48
ToolPackinMama  
The three famous duos pictured have one really significant thing in common:

http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us/threeduos.jpg

They all thrive on adventure and danger! :)
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #55834 ] Di, 07 Juni 2005 19:48
Kweeg  
"TBSFIST" <oncedarknessnowlight [at] yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1118133721.623396.50440 [at] z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Interesting. Whereas in the past I felt that you (Laura Goodwin) were
> trying your hand at a bit of twisted satire directed towards the TOS
> community, I now see that you actually believe that Captain Kirk and
> his First Officer Spock were homosexual lovers.
>
> And the writers of the show inserted this gay love into the series for
> what reason?
>
> This seems to me to be a classic example of paradigm bias. There is no
> real evidence in the show for such a relationship as you suggest,
> although there is great evidence for a close friendship between these
> two men.
>
> There is always the danger of reading ones own meaning into whatever
> the subject or topic may be. There is no lack of voices ready proclaim
> some bizarre, controversial fact with a weak and unsupported basis in
> reality. Most believe they are right and that those in opposition
> suffer from some psychological blindness to the real truth.
>
> One great danger in your assertion is that if two men exhibit such a
> devoted personal bond, they must be homosexual lovers. This would make
> any heterosexual male friends wary and skittish around people like you
> ready to brand them lovers because they aren't aloof and distant.
>
> I think the real question is not were Kirk and Spock gay lovers.
>
> The real question is why do you need for them to be?


....applause...
I hope you don't expect a logical answer from her.
....applause...
--

Qa'pla
Kweeg
http://members.shaw.ca/iksbloodoath
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #57444 ] Do, 09 Juni 2005 01:28
Terakonn  
Excuse me, but the line was "I have been, and always shall be, your
friend.", not "I have been, and always shall be yours.". you seem to have
left out the one word which would change the entire context of the
statement, in order to prove your point, which proves your point is invalid.
Terakonn


"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:42A07F0F.5030800 [at] lauragoodwin.org...
> Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G.
> by Laura Goodwin
> http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us

> Carol Marcus in ST 2 (Wrath of Khan), scientist and mother of his son,
> David. Their affair is a thing of the distant past. Not only don't we see
> them kiss, they can barely stand each other. OTOH, Kirk and Spock have a
> couple of scenes where they basically declare love to each other. In one
> scene, Spock says "I have been, and always shall be yours."
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #57447 ] Do, 09 Juni 2005 02:15
Kweeg  
"Terakonn" <terakonn [at] tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:saLpe.74972$VH2.64113 [at] tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
> news:42A07F0F.5030800 [at] lauragoodwin.org...
> > Carol Marcus in ST 2 (Wrath of Khan), scientist and mother of his son,
> > David. Their affair is a thing of the distant past. Not only don't we
see
> > them kiss, they can barely stand each other. OTOH, Kirk and Spock have a
> > couple of scenes where they basically declare love to each other. In one
> > scene, Spock says "I have been, and always shall be yours."
>
>
> Excuse me, but the line was "I have been, and always shall be, your
> friend.", not "I have been, and always shall be yours.". you seem to have
> left out the one word which would change the entire context of the
> statement, in order to prove your point, which proves your point is
invalid.
> Terakonn


shhh.... don't try and use logic... she has her own brand of it. It's The
World According to Laura I'm Always Right (TM) brand.
--

Qa'pla
Kweeg
http://members.shaw.ca/iksbloodoath
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #57448 ] Do, 09 Juni 2005 03:10
Snake  
"Terakonn" <terakonn [at] tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:saLpe.74972$VH2.64113 [at] tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> Excuse me, but the line was "I have been, and always shall be, your
> friend.", not "I have been, and always shall be yours.". you seem to have
> left out the one word which would change the entire context of the
> statement, in order to prove your point, which proves your point is
> invalid.
> Terakonn

Spock says that like to Kirk in Spock's quarters. "I am your friend. I
have been, and always shall be yours."

The line you quote is from Spock's death scene in Engineering.
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #57449 ] Do, 09 Juni 2005 03:14
ToolPackinMama  
Terakonn wrote:
> Excuse me, but the line was "I have been, and always shall be, your
> friend.", not "I have been, and always shall be yours.".

You're wrong. That's a direct screencap, and the line is complete.
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #57454 ] Do, 09 Juni 2005 03:49
Kweeg  
"Snake" <fluidstates_NO+SPAM [at] REMOVE-ME.verizon.IHATESPAM.SPAM_VAC.com> wrote
in message news:eGMpe.9535$NP2.1069 [at] trndny05...
> "Terakonn" <terakonn [at] tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:saLpe.74972$VH2.64113 [at] tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
> > Excuse me, but the line was "I have been, and always shall be, your
> > friend.", not "I have been, and always shall be yours.". you seem to
have
> > left out the one word which would change the entire context of the
> > statement, in order to prove your point, which proves your point is
> > invalid.
> > Terakonn
>
> Spock says that like to Kirk in Spock's quarters. "I am your friend. I
> have been, and always shall be yours."
>
> The line you quote is from Spock's death scene in Engineering.

Spock's quarters;
"You are my commanding officer. You are also my friend. I have been and
always shall be yours."

Spock's death in Engineering;
"I have been and always will be your friend...Live. Long. And. Prosper."

--

Qa'pla
Kweeg
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #57455 ] Do, 09 Juni 2005 04:06
ToolPackinMama  
Kweeg wrote:


> Spock's quarters;
> "You are my commanding officer. You are also my friend. I have been and
> always shall be yours."
>
> Spock's death in Engineering;
> "I have been and always will be your friend...Live. Long. And. Prosper."

That's correct. In public he said "Your friend". In private, he just
said "I have been and always shall be yours".
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #57456 ] Do, 09 Juni 2005 04:08
GeneK  
"Snake" <fluidstates_NO+SPAM [at] REMOVE-ME.verizon.IHATESPAM.SPAM_VAC.com> wrote in message
news:eGMpe.9535$NP2.1069 [at] trndny05...
> "Terakonn" <terakonn [at] tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:saLpe.74972$VH2.64113 [at] tornado.tampabay.rr.com...
>> Excuse me, but the line was "I have been, and always shall be, your friend.", not "I
>> have been, and always shall be yours.". you seem to have left out the one word which
>> would change the entire context of the statement, in order to prove your point, which
>> proves your point is invalid.
>> Terakonn
>
> Spock says that like to Kirk in Spock's quarters. "I am your friend. I have been, and
> always shall be yours."

The complete line is "You are my commanding officer. You are also my
friend. I have been and always shall be yours." The death scene
variation makes the context clearer, but in both cases the meaning
is clear enough to anyone not attempting to satisfy a preconceived
notion.

GeneK
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #57460 ] Do, 09 Juni 2005 07:16
TBSFIST  
Again, could not two men who are close personal friends act in EXACTLY
the same way?

Wait a minute; I want to join in. Let me see - Starsky & Hutch = gay
lovers.
Tom Sawyer & Huckleberry Finn = gay lovers.
Abbott & Costello = gay lovers.
McDonnell & Douglas = gay lovers.
Bing Crosby & Bob Hope = gay lovers.
Siskel & Ebert = gay lovers.
Barnum & Bailey = gay lovers.
Cheech Marin & Tommy Chong = gay lovers.
Watson & Crick = gay lovers.
Sherlock Holmes & Dr. Watson = gay lovers.
Barnes & Noble = gay lovers.
Felix Unger & Oscar Madison = gay lovers.
Harley & Davidson = gay lovers.
Butch Cassidy & Sundance Kid = gay lovers.
Sears & Roebuck = gay lovers.
Andy Taylor & Barney Fife = gay lovers.
Simon & Garfunkle = gay lovers.
Lone Ranger & Tonto = gay lovers.
Ralph Kramden & Ed Norton = gay lovers.
Simon & Schuster = gay lovers.
Dean Martin & Jerry Lewis = gay lovers.
Levi & Strauss = gay lovers.
Stan Laurel & Oliver Hardy = gay lovers.
Smith & Wesson = gay lovers.
Karl Marx & Friedrich Engels = gay lovers.
Amos & Andy = gay lovers.
Charles Stewart Rolls & Frederick Henry Royce = gay lovers.
Lewis & Clark = gay lovers.

All of the above were sexual pairs and I can prove it! Some extremely
selective photos or quotes and some out of context commentary and you
will be convinced. Right? RIGHT?

This woman has had too much license in this newsgroup. Like religious
and political extremists, her sexual extremism has bled over to other
areas of thought including Star Trek. Just like them, she has twisted
whatever facts she can to suit her cause and downplayed the obvious.
She is not at all affected that most find her allegation preposterous,
because her skewed perception doesn't have to coincide with reality.
Surrounded by submissive males, including her husband, she is
apparently never told that occasionally she can be wrong. Dead wrong.



ToolPackinMama wrote:
> Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G.
> by Laura Goodwin
> http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #58235 ] Fr, 10 Juni 2005 00:39
George Peatty  
On 8 Jun 2005 22:16:51 -0700, "TBSFIST" <oncedarknessnowlight [at] yahoo.com>
wrote:

>she is apparently never told that occasionally she can be wrong.

You are apparently new around here. She has been told. *Emphatically.*
Point of fact, few posters on usenet have ever suffered as much verbal
abuse. Others here have been blunt to the point of cruelty, and I have been
part of that. For that I am sorry. However, neither my apologies nor my
past misdeeds will reach her in the smallest degree. She is oblivious.

I know a little something about compulsion, because I struggle with a couple
of my own, and she presents as someone *compelled* to do what she does. To
her, it is not enough that we tolerate K / S: we must celebrate it with
her, and she will continue to argue her cause until all of us embrace it as
she does. It does not matter that most here want no part of this; it does
not matter that most here disagree with her views in this matter; it does
not matter that her views are untenable by any criteria I understand.
Nothing matters to her except the quest, and her holy grail is the
celebration of homosexuality within Star Trek.
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #58252 ] Fr, 10 Juni 2005 08:10
Captain Kundalini  
Really, whoever posts this shit is the biggest news group nigger troll there
is.


"Kevin" <webman6 [at] hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:FC8oe.75$RQ3.3906 [at] news.uswest.net...
>A bunch of stuff clipped for brevity ---
>
> You've got to be kidding. Not the "Kirk is gay" thing again? I thought
> this was put to rest ages ago. If you were to speak with Bill, Leonard,
> Nichelle, Walter, George or Jimmy they would give you a sideways look,
> roll
> their eyes and ignore you completely. They hate this kind of stuff. Gene
> and Majel refused to even discuss this topic when it was brought up.
>
>
> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
> news:42A07F0F.5030800 [at] lauragoodwin.org...
>> Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G.
>> by Laura Goodwin
>> http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us
>
>
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #59069 ] Sa, 11 Juni 2005 03:35
Laura Ware  
"ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
news:11af90dgatmsn23 [at] news.supernews.com...
> Kweeg wrote:
>
>
>> Spock's quarters;
>> "You are my commanding officer. You are also my friend. I have been and
>> always shall be yours."
>>
>> Spock's death in Engineering;
>> "I have been and always will be your friend...Live. Long. And.
>> Prosper."
>
> That's correct. In public he said "Your friend". In private, he just
> said "I have been and always shall be yours".

However, let's put it in context, shall we?
The context is NOT romance. Spock reminds Kirk that he is Spock's friend.
Spock affirms...what? He says "I...shall be yours." Your what? Refer back
to the previous sentence - your FRIEND.

It's your reliance on sloppy grammer like this that hurts your credibility.
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #59071 ] Sa, 11 Juni 2005 03:47
Nightspirit  
kev <kev [at] evilcabal.org> wrote in news:d7s7fh.3jo.1 [at] news.evilcabal.org:

> On 04 Jun 2005, the world was enlightened by 's opinion about...
>
>> Roddenberry was LIVID when a TREK book came out with a K/S theme. He
>> had all the copies recalled and pulped. That's more important than
>> some death bed "confession" that you keep yammering about.
>>
>>
>
> IIRC, that would be the book would be "Black Fire" by Sonni Cooper.
> It was re-released after the offending sections were
> removed/rewritten.
>
> kev
>

Nope it wasn't Blackfire it was another one, Killing Time where the Romulan
altar history so that Kirk was a bitter junior officer and Spock was his
Captian. Another while not K/S was (Dwellers In The Crucible where two
female characters stood in for Kirk and Spock.

--
---
Have Fun
Night Spirit

The yellow jester does not play
But gently pulls the strings
And smiles as the puppets dance
In the court of the crimson king.

Blog: http://www.livejournal.com/~hipdale/
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #59073 ] Sa, 11 Juni 2005 04:06
kev  
On 10 Jun 2005, the world was enlightened by Nightspirit's opinion
about...

> kev <kev [at] evilcabal.org> wrote in news:d7s7fh.3jo.1 [at] news.evilcabal.org:
>
>> On 04 Jun 2005, the world was enlightened by 's opinion about...
>>
>>> Roddenberry was LIVID when a TREK book came out with a K/S theme. He
>>> had all the copies recalled and pulped. That's more important than
>>> some death bed "confession" that you keep yammering about.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> IIRC, that would be the book would be "Black Fire" by Sonni Cooper.
>> It was re-released after the offending sections were
>> removed/rewritten.
>>
>> kev
>>
>
> Nope it wasn't Blackfire it was another one, Killing Time where the
> Romulan altar history so that Kirk was a bitter junior officer and Spock
> was his Captian. Another while not K/S was (Dwellers In The Crucible
> where two female characters stood in for Kirk and Spock.
>

So it was. For some reason Cooper's soap screenwriting was making me thin
it was hers. That and Spock being portrayed as a pirate with a flair for
fashion.


kev

--
Gravity. It isn't just a good idea. It's the law. - Gerry Mooney, 1977.

The Eeeevil Cabal's Nine of Spades.
Wickeddoll's on-demand übernerd.
Declared Hero of alt.tv.star-trek.tos by the ToolPackinMama on 14.09.2003.
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #59078 ] Sa, 11 Juni 2005 05:29
Kweeg  
"Laura Ware" <bookwormladyLEAVEMEALONE [at] earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:0erqe.2444$VK4.1571 [at] newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>
> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
> news:11af90dgatmsn23 [at] news.supernews.com...
> > Kweeg wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Spock's quarters;
> >> "You are my commanding officer. You are also my friend. I have been and
> >> always shall be yours."
> >>
> >> Spock's death in Engineering;
> >> "I have been and always will be your friend...Live. Long. And.
> >> Prosper."
> >
> > That's correct. In public he said "Your friend". In private, he just
> > said "I have been and always shall be yours".
>
> However, let's put it in context, shall we?
> The context is NOT romance. Spock reminds Kirk that he is Spock's friend.
> Spock affirms...what? He says "I...shall be yours." Your what? Refer
back
> to the previous sentence - your FRIEND.
>
> It's your reliance on sloppy grammer like this that hurts your
credibility.


Indeed.

--

Qa'pla
Kweeg
http://members.shaw.ca/iksbloodoath
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #59079 ] Sa, 11 Juni 2005 05:30
ToolPackinMama  
Laura Ware wrote:

> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
> news:11af90dgatmsn23 [at] news.supernews.com...
>
>>Kweeg wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Spock's quarters;
>>>"You are my commanding officer. You are also my friend. I have been and
>>>always shall be yours."
>>>
>>>Spock's death in Engineering;
>>>"I have been and always will be your friend...Live. Long. And.
>>>Prosper."
>>
>>That's correct. In public he said "Your friend". In private, he just
>>said "I have been and always shall be yours".
>
>
> However, let's put it in context, shall we?
> The context is NOT romance. Spock reminds Kirk that he is Spock's friend.
> Spock affirms...what? He says "I...shall be yours." Your what? Refer back
> to the previous sentence - your FRIEND.
>
> It's your reliance on sloppy grammer like this that hurts your credibility.

http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us/yours.jpg.

That is a direct screengrab, and the subtitle is accurate. If you have
a problem with the grammar, complain to the writers.

Spock is saying that to Kirk in private. Do you next plan to state or
imply that what I just said is untrue? If you do, it will harm your
credibility, not mine. I'm just stating a fact that is readily,
independantly verifiable.
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #59080 ] Sa, 11 Juni 2005 05:33
ToolPackinMama  
Kweeg wrote:
> "Laura Ware" <bookwormladyLEAVEMEALONE [at] earthlink.net> wrote

>>It's your reliance on sloppy grammer like this that hurts your
>
> credibility.
>
>
> Indeed.
>

Oh really? Do either of you see any grammar flaws in this quote?

Gene Roddenberry: "I'm sorry I never had a homosexual relationship," he
remarks pensively, out of the blue, one afternoon, "because I know that
there must be many joys and pleasures and degrees of closeness in those
relationships. I think that I have in a way been cursed by having
picked my particular time period and background and so on, because I
have no doubt that I am capable of homosexualism. As a matter of fact,
remind me, I'm in the midst of making a decision about homosexuality -
male and female - and how we are going to treat it on Star Trek, the
lovely ways in which we will treat it - without defying present average
conditions."

[From Gene Roddenberry; The Last Conversation (by Yvonne Fern, 1994)]
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #59081 ] Sa, 11 Juni 2005 05:58
kev  
On 10 Jun 2005, the world was enlightened by ToolPackinMama's opinion
about...

> Laura Ware wrote:
>
>> "ToolPackinMama" <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote in message
>> news:11af90dgatmsn23 [at] news.supernews.com...
>>
>>>Kweeg wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Spock's quarters;
>>>>"You are my commanding officer. You are also my friend. I have been
>>>>and always shall be yours."
>>>>
>>>>Spock's death in Engineering;
>>>>"I have been and always will be your friend...Live. Long. And.
>>>>Prosper."
>>>
>>>That's correct. In public he said "Your friend". In private, he just
>>>said "I have been and always shall be yours".
>>
>>
>> However, let's put it in context, shall we?
>> The context is NOT romance. Spock reminds Kirk that he is Spock's
>> friend. Spock affirms...what? He says "I...shall be yours." Your
>> what? Refer back to the previous sentence - your FRIEND.
>>
>> It's your reliance on sloppy grammer like this that hurts your
>> credibility.
>
> http://allyourtrekarebelongto.us/yours.jpg.
>
> That is a direct screengrab, and the subtitle is accurate. If you have
> a problem with the grammar, complain to the writers.
>
> Spock is saying that to Kirk in private. Do you next plan to state or
> imply that what I just said is untrue? If you do, it will harm your
> credibility, not mine. I'm just stating a fact that is readily,
> independantly verifiable.
>

What part of "let's put it in context" do you not understand?

"You are my superior officer. You are also my friend. I have been and
always shall be yours."

Your credibility is quickly reaching absolute zero.


kev

--
If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough.
- Mario Andretti

The Eeeevil Cabal's Nine of Spades.
Wickeddoll's on-demand übernerd.
Declared Hero of alt.tv.star-trek.tos by the ToolPackinMama on 14.09.2003.
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #59082 ] Sa, 11 Juni 2005 06:03
phyphor  
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:33:16 -0400, ToolPackinMama
<laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote:

>Kweeg wrote:
>> "Laura Ware" <bookwormladyLEAVEMEALONE [at] earthlink.net> wrote
>
>>>It's your reliance on sloppy grammer like this that hurts your
>>
>> credibility.
>>
>>
>> Indeed.
>>
>
>Oh really? Do either of you see any grammar flaws in this quote?
>
>Gene Roddenberry: "I'm sorry I never had a homosexual relationship," he
>remarks pensively, out of the blue, one afternoon, "because I know that
>there must be many joys and pleasures and degrees of closeness in those
>relationships. I think that I have in a way been cursed by having
>picked my particular time period and background and so on, because I
>have no doubt that I am capable of homosexualism. As a matter of fact,
>remind me, I'm in the midst of making a decision about homosexuality -
>male and female - and how we are going to treat it on Star Trek, the
>lovely ways in which we will treat it - without defying present average
>conditions."
>
>[From Gene Roddenberry; The Last Conversation (by Yvonne Fern, 1994)]

What does that have to do with Canon, or the quote she referenced?

-LMB
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #59083 ] Sa, 11 Juni 2005 06:05
kev  
On 11 Jun 2005, the world was enlightened by Louis M. Brown's opinion
about...

> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 23:33:16 -0400, ToolPackinMama
> <laura [at] lauragoodwin.org> wrote:
>
>>Kweeg wrote:
>>> "Laura Ware" <bookwormladyLEAVEMEALONE [at] earthlink.net> wrote
>>
>>>>It's your reliance on sloppy grammer like this that hurts your
>>>
>>> credibility.
>>>
>>>
>>> Indeed.
>>>
>>
>>Oh really? Do either of you see any grammar flaws in this quote?
>>
>>Gene Roddenberry: "I'm sorry I never had a homosexual relationship," he
>>remarks pensively, out of the blue, one afternoon, "because I know that
>>there must be many joys and pleasures and degrees of closeness in those
>>relationships. I think that I have in a way been cursed by having
>>picked my particular time period and background and so on, because I
>>have no doubt that I am capable of homosexualism. As a matter of fact,
>>remind me, I'm in the midst of making a decision about homosexuality -
>>male and female - and how we are going to treat it on Star Trek, the
>>lovely ways in which we will treat it - without defying present average
>>conditions."
>>
>>[From Gene Roddenberry; The Last Conversation (by Yvonne Fern, 1994)]
>
> What does that have to do with Canon, or the quote she referenced?
>
> -LMB
>

Not a thing.


kev

--
Absolute zero is cool.

The Eeeevil Cabal's Nine of Spades.
Wickeddoll's on-demand übernerd.
Declared Hero of alt.tv.star-trek.tos by the ToolPackinMama on 14.09.2003.
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #59084 ] Sa, 11 Juni 2005 06:06
phyphor  
On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:06:29 -0400, kev <kev [at] evilcabal.org> wrote:

>On 10 Jun 2005, the world was enlightened by Nightspirit's opinion
>about...
>
>> kev <kev [at] evilcabal.org> wrote in news:d7s7fh.3jo.1 [at] news.evilcabal.org:
>>
>>> On 04 Jun 2005, the world was enlightened by 's opinion about...
>>>
>>>> Roddenberry was LIVID when a TREK book came out with a K/S theme. He
>>>> had all the copies recalled and pulped. That's more important than
>>>> some death bed "confession" that you keep yammering about.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> IIRC, that would be the book would be "Black Fire" by Sonni Cooper.
>>> It was re-released after the offending sections were
>>> removed/rewritten.
>>>
>>> kev
>>>
>>
>> Nope it wasn't Blackfire it was another one, Killing Time where the
>> Romulan altar history so that Kirk was a bitter junior officer and Spock
>> was his Captian. Another while not K/S was (Dwellers In The Crucible
>> where two female characters stood in for Kirk and Spock.
>>
>
>So it was. For some reason Cooper's soap screenwriting was making me thin
>it was hers. That and Spock being portrayed as a pirate with a flair for
>fashion.
>
>
>kev

Oh god, you had to remind me.

And what about that god-awful fucking POEM that chick wrote for him?

I am so glad that shit ain't canon.

-LMB
Re: REVISED: TOS commentary - "Kirk, and K.I.S.S.I.N.G." [K/S] [message #59085 ] Sa, 11 Juni 2005 06:10
kev  
On 11 Jun 2005, the world was enlightened by Louis M. Brown's opinion
about...

> On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 22:06:29 -0400, kev <kev [at] evilcabal.org> wrote:
>
>>On 10 Jun 2005, the world was enlightened by Nightspirit's opinion
>>about...
>>
>>> kev <kev [at] evilcabal.org> wrote in news:d7s7fh.3jo.1 [at] news.evilcabal.org:
>>>
>>>> On 04 Jun 2005, the world was enlightened by 's opinion about...
>>>>
>>>>> Roddenberry was LIVID when a TREK book came out with a K/S theme. He
>>>>> had all the copies recalled and pulped. That's more important than
>>>>> some death bed "confession" that you keep yammering about.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> IIRC, that would be the book would be "Black Fire" by Sonni Cooper.
>>>> It was re-released after the offending sections were
>>>> removed/rewritten.
>>>>
>>>> kev
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nope it wasn't Blackfire it was another one, Killing Time where the
>>> Romulan altar history so that Kirk was a bitter junior officer and
>>> Spock was his Captian. Another while not K/S was (Dwellers In The
>>> Crucible where two female characters stood in for Kirk and Spock.
>>>
>>
>>So it was. For some reason Cooper's soap screenwriting was making me
>>thin it was hers. That and Spock being portrayed as a pirate with a
>>flair for fashion.
>>
>>
>>kev
>
> Oh god, you had to remind me.
>
> And what about that god-awful fucking POEM that chick wrote for him?
>
> I am so glad that shit ain't canon.
>
> -LMB
>
>

You and me both :O


kev

--
It's not you, it's me. I don't like you. - Aeryn, Farscape

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